TOPIC: Ignition switch help!?

Ive got a 1970 Johnson 33hp electric start outboard and i put it in a full trashcan of water and hooked up 50:1 fuel tank and a fresh battery and I tried to start it up, but must have bad starter because nothing happens. Run power straight to starter terminal and ground and it kicks out, but not enough to spin up and engage flywheel. That's problem 1

Problem #2, I also suspected solenoid, so I checked that, but it clicks when enegerzied like it's supposed to. Started checking all the the grounds per the troubleshooting guide in my original service manual, and I have small voltage at almost every single place I check. Got to ignition switch and I have voltage in every single key position. Sent the brand new key switch back to my ebay seller and they sent me a new one - SAME thing. .I know the odds of two failed switches out of the box are bad, so what else could be going on? I walked away for a few hours frustrated, and came back to find the entire engine block very hot because I forgot to disconnect the battery. Somehow, voltage is present at all times, and shorting somewhere, right? I verified my harness ia connected the same way as in the wiring diagram, but something just seems backward somehow. If the magneto and ground wires, both black, are switched on the key switch I get no difference when trying to start it.

Please help!

I pulled the rope start which is really difficult, but it didturn over and run for a couple seconds. Enough to churn the prop for a moment and kick some 2 stroke smoke.

Any advice the community can offer is greatly appreciated!

Are you using the correct marine solenoid? Although they look the same as automotive ones, they are wired different internally.
Cheers
Bill

The solenoid was on the motor when I bought it, and appears to have worked in its place for many years.

The switch was new because no key for original switch on the boat, and the outboard came with no switch at all. Although an ebay purchase, the switch is a marine switch. It's pre push to choke, which was a little trickier to find.

Im thinking somehow the voltage is being back fed though the safety cutout switch or magneto circuit, is that possible? I dont know how else the entire engine block could be so warm..

I've been at this for hours before posting, and decided to double check things while waiting for some responses and have also noticed the shifter is rather gummy. I've never owned or operated an outboard before, but it just doesn't feel right.

If the shifter isn't properly engaged in neutral, I assume its preventing it from electric start, and also why I'm having a helluva of time pull starting it. A little lock lever up top keeps clicking down! Maybe why it starts but dies right away (that and carb needing attention..)

None of that explains my other electrical woes though.

I dont know if I'm finding other problems, or if it's just all one thing. I really hate to do the "throw money" test and slap a starter and solenoid on there and have the same issues.

Thanks again for any help you all may have to offer

well i'm not as proficient as some on outboards around here but i make a living off wiring stuff up. you need 12 volts at every termination of the starter circuit . has the engine ran at all in its current state. was the previous owner working on it when you got it or was everything good and something changed or you got it like this. 12 volts to the starter solenoid to see if it will turn over. start eliminating the problems. electric choke probably. and the neutral safety switch . sounds right. if nothing else take the control cables off and hand set the neutral position. eliminate that. now as far as some sort of short. take some tape pull off any of the starting circuit wires. tape and mark where it goes, i would start at the last point and work my way to the first point and see if your losing voltage . you need a battery load. tester check 12 volts before and after you try to start it. if your drawing too much you have a direct short. you may need to find a factory switch . have you got the original switch, did it work with the correct switch , and they just lost the key. i made a key to a Volkswagen once. the guy said he lost the key. i made the key put it in the switch and tried to start it. the wiring started smoking. i had to replace the harness, and after all that i found the keys in the grass next to the car. when i got done. he wanted me to buy a new harness so he tossed the keys and called me. i say that if he couldn't get it running then he couldn't find the key to make a sale. i don't know. i would check in getting a key made to the original switch.
these are just suggestions . some may have a better one but two three four heads , you know. hope this helps.

billy

Whhhooooo boy, sounds like you have more than one issue happening at the same time.
Cap Billy has some good suggestions but before you start pulling and marking wires here are some things to try. Remember these are only suggestions and worth what you pay for them
That little lever is preventing you from starting in gear. Make sure your shifter is in neutral. and the timing advance lever is in the start position, that controls that lever. I think a clue here is that you say the shifter feels gummy. It shouldn't be that way. Get some automotive carb cleaner or brake cleaner and really flush all those moving parts to get the old grease and dirt off of them. If that's out of the question for you a strong solution of dish soap and very hot water with a stiff brush will work but won't be as efficient. There should not be any sticky feeling, the shifter should move freely. I'm not that familiar with the 33hp but is there a cut-out circuit on that? If so disconnect that because I believe that shorts out one of your coils if it over-revs in neutral.- starting to sound coincidental yet? When you say the system felt hot that means you have something shorting out to ground. Look under your flywheel with a flashlight and make sure no wires are rubbing on the flywheel when it is spinning. If the timing advance is not moving freely (gummed up) it might be pushing one of the ignition wires against the spinning wheel. I've seen this before if coils were not replaced properly. With the shifter cable disconnected at the motor manually rotate the timing advance while looking under there. Sounds like the motor just needs a good cleaning and synchronizing. There are manuals that show/tell how to synchronize your motor so the carbs, timing, etc. are all in proper sequence for starting.
Try this link and find the manual you need and then page through that manual for your motor. It lets you print any pages you might need.
The site is a little tricky to navigate but you'll catch on.
Good Luck
boatinfo.no/lib/evinrude/manuals/1956-1970johnsonevinrude.html#/0

Okay, instead of trying to fix everything all at once, I think I'll start with identifying neutral. We know that's going to prevent starting, and therefore needs to work to help figure out what else is preventing starting.

Just for clarity though, the Fast, Start, Slow knob is where I'm feeling its gummy, and the lever on the same side as starter, which does the F/N/R seems to have a hearty click into position.

The fast slow start knob doesnt properly align with start, and I think that is affecting where the tab on the flywheel contacts the safety switch. Is there a way to check the switch for proper operation before trying to adjust everything else? I mean, does it read open or closed when the tab under the flywheel makes contact?

OK, you have the right attitude. One step at a time. Without seeing the motor myself if I remember correctly there are some rods that are attached to the timing advance, carb, shifter lever somewhere around the flywheel area. Those rods should have set screws that you can loosen and then move them into proper position. There are probably indicator markings scribed somewhere on the carb, and spark advance (timing). This is where you need to read a manual to see whether those marks are for idle or start. I'll see if I can locate a page or two and scan it with step by step instructions.
This is table 1, procedure 5. The "tool" the mention is just a wire on a alligator clip. No biggie. Use method "C".

That last photo with #15 in the corner of the photo looks really familiar! Is there more detail on that rod there? That's where I have the most play in position, and the gummiest feel between them. It kind of springs back toward start (in the middle) when moving toward fast, and cannot be fully moved to slow. I'll try to get it degreased a little and send a photo or two.

I've back and forth between fiberglass repair and motor tinkering, depending on time/frustration lol!

I thought about my "short circuit" problem, and put the key in run position, and got my laser thermometer out to see if I could identify where the short was by what got hot first, and boy did that work great! Turns out, because the pre "push to choke" switch is being used, and the motor is on the stand, not the boat, I'm not using the separate choke switch which was leaving the choke solenoid "on" all the time. That's what got hot, and it all radiated out from there. So....both good and bad news. I won't walk away frustrated without taking the keys out so that my engine doesn't catch fire, but thats not why it's refusing to start and run. Bummer :/

The levers seemed no more or less gummy after degreasing, and I'm still not confident I'm following those snippets on adjustment of the switches. Is it similar to a coil on a lawn-mower? Stick a business card between the switch and the flywheel to get the gap right and then tighten it down? I'm thinking maybe that's where the problem is.

Any help is appreciated.

I do the switch gears option all the time from motor to hull. Works to clear the mind somewhat.
I had the same problem with an old 40hp Gale that for whatever reason would not start. Put in all new coils, condensers etc. Turned it into a parts motor.
Not to discourage you. Here's a schematic of what you should have:
The wiring is really simple to follow so wondering if you could just take your ohm meter and check every wire for continuity and good/bad connections. To eliminate the cut out switch just disconnect the two black wires at the cut out and connect them together. The cutout is a safety to prevent over revving. If pot vacuum gets too high it triggers that switch and shorts out one of the coils.
If you had a problem with the choke shorting out or staying on I'm beginning to suspect the ignition key switch itself. Maybe grounding the "M" magneto contacts?? Maybe the safety switch is stuck closed? Ohm meter check would work on that.

Motor is in neutral, confirmed by free spinning the prop in either direction.

Gave the diagnostic flow chart a second (or 5th) go and am not making it past the safety switch check.

I assume the switch is supposed to ground out the start circuit unless in the proper position, but no matter how the little plunger sits against that cam just below the flywheel, it even not touching it at all, I get battery voltage when connecting from one side of it to common ground. That means it fails according to my flow chart. . That means the switch itself is bad, correct? How do I temporarily bypass its function in order to confirm the result?

Thanks again for your patience with this frustrating old engine!

Okay, well, finally got smart and just pulled the safety switch off. .

Infinite resistance across its mounting base and the spade terminal on its side, whether or not the little plunger is pressed or not. Just like any other switch laying around the workbench...which all close the circuit when pressed. Very simple switch. Very simple test. Not sure how I missed that the first go around.

While I'm trying to find a new one I suppose im back to sanding

While waiting for my switch, I went ahead and wired up a little jumper to ground, bypassing the switch.

Immediately the electric start worked again! Fantastic. After a few spurts of starting fluid and a couple tries, it started to sputter. I pushed the lever all the way from start as far into "slow" as I could, and then it burst life with a bucket full of splashes!

I had to keep edging the throttle back toward start and fast or it would die. Between fast and start it would run smoothly on its own for 15-30seconds before needing to push the lever back between them again.

I got anxious, and decided to try and check the forward and reverse.... went to reverse first, it immediately killed the engine, which kicked a little, and sent the prop through the side of my plastic garbage can.

Three observations / questions
1. How do you shift a boat motor to forward and reverse gears (lol) or is there something wrong with mine (not funny)?
2. A little gas was coming from the carb and dripping out the front. Would it be possible to be fixed with the idle screws, or is that an internal issuesolved by a fresh set of gaskets etc?
3. Didnt notice water coming from the pee hole, but spitting smoke for sure. After 45seconds of running, the exhaust tube measured 160deg. What is normal, and can I clean that tube or is a tear down and water pump impeller replacement up next?

Thanks again on this continuously evolving set of troubles!

Yeah,...it lives!
160 degrees is on the very warm side, good you shut it down. Should run 140 deg or slightly less. I would check the thermostat, probably all corroded and stuck. A good cleaning would do wonders and as long as it's apart back flush the cooling lines with your garden hose. An impeller change is a must for any old motor. (Marineengine.com)
Sounds like you have some carb issues, maybe the float is stuck and loading the carb which would cause the dripping. Tap it with a screwdriver handle, it might free up.
A good starting point for setting those needle valves is to screw them both in until they bottom out, DO NOT FORCE. Turn them out 1 1/2 turn. Let it warm up before doing any more adjustments. If you can hold your hand/fingers on the side of the cylinders while it's running it's cooling, If it's too hot to touch, shut 'er down.
Unfortunate about the garbage can at least you know it shifts.
It's no more trouble than most of us have gone through. Your heading in all positive directions. Go sand for awhile….