TOPIC: Inline six power tilt trim

could be worn bore and pistons. rod bearings would be a knock.

Hi Terry,
Sorry this time of year is busy getting everything set for the season, I’ll connect.
As far as engine noise goes I’m not sure what you did to the powerhead. I think you just dressed a clean one one did no mechanicals.
Good suggestion earlier on flywheel, you don’t have the flex plate style he was concerned about but make sure yours is torqued down.
Likewise the pawls, check the easy stuff first. Are you sure noise is not related to the lower unit? You could pull it and run a hose on the water pipe and see if noise persists.
For the not so easy suspects one thing to suspect is the ball bearing in the lower main cap, I’ve seen a lot of questionable ones even on the cleanest original powerhead. As a routine at a minimum, I remove all the covers and I split the case to give everything a good look over, you can tell a lot about true condition by checking ring spring back through both sets of ports, reed condition etc. Also any hints of corrosion can be seen, if everything looks good you don’t have to pull the crank train, clean originals do exist. However, the lower bearing ,end seals and Orings always get replaced. McMaster Carr has these bearings as it’s an industry size. I also steer away from bearings made with plastic cages, I see that frequently on original 70’s powerheads. Obviously the case gets resealed and new gaskets go in.
Oddly the flywheel end cap bearings are usually just fine, they are bigger and they are not near the cooling water discharge like the lowers
so maybe that’s why, don’t know, I just always replace the lower one.
I’ve never seen internal crank related roller bearing issues on clean powerheads but, of course this is always a possibility particularly if corrosion formed on anything internal if storage was less than ideal. Any hints of corrosion on the rings, reeds, stops, crank weights and rods means everything comes apart to inspect the bearings even if rings all spring.
I hope it’s one of the easier suspects or not a funny noise at all, it’s hard to tell from the video, these motors are not quiet when running to accentuate odd sounds.
Be aware that the 90 cu in powerheads will bolt right on too, the 850/1000 ilk. You will just need to match it to the right carbs. So when hunting around you are not limited to the rarer 76 cu in the FGS version powerheads.
Randy
Randy

Hey All,

Finally got my ass in gear up here in the Holler and put some paint on this 61 Merc 800EL-1
Used Nasson single stage urethane with high build sanding primer over top of etching primer on finely blasted aluminium.










The lakes here in Northern IL are open now and I plan to get the motor in the water next week and see how it performs. Concerned with the noise I heard but want to make idle adjustments on the water and then run it and see what happens. The Merc manual states carbon buildup can cause noise so I got a can of Merc Tune and gonna blast and soak it and pray for a miracle.

Hey Randy aka 63g3,

Thanks for all the great info and recommendations. You know you should write a book.
I determined the rattle is not emanating from the lower unit or cowl. I had actually considered replacing the cap bearing, when I had it torn down, based on what I learned from Bob Grubb at OldMercs.

Thanks,
Terry

Looking great Terry. Sure you want to put it in the water?? Looks more like it should go in a show room.
Suggestion...Try running a tank of some Sea Foam mixed fuel to clean up carbon build-up before doing anything drastic. I've done that on just about all of my old motors. Usually find that after several days and a few hard runs the black crap stops dripping on my garage floor and some noise problems usually quiet down. Of course those are all OMCs and they usually drip black crap naturally
Don't mean this to sound like a commercial but never hurts to try. Now summer is here so get those boats on the water.

Thanks Cal,

Still at work and making some progress on the Old Merc.


The motor performed great over the weekend and Mama Mia! took a 2nd Best Fiberglass award at Famous Freddie’s.


Been using the SeaFoam and she starts up cold on first try every time which is amazing.


Have the tilt/trim setup assembled and goes up fine but gotta push down by hand when pump the pump is reversed.

Also, I’m curious how this is supposed to be wired. The pump only has one solenoid.


Our friend Mary has found a copy of the Mercury decal and is going to replicate the same.


Working on the lower unit reassembly next.

Thanks,
Terry

Terry,
If the power trim rams motion when tilting up isn't stopped by a safety strap, the rams go fully extended, which results in the Merc can tilt over center (too far), and then when attempting to tilt down, the rams can't contract unless you manually give the beast a slight push.
The trim assembly can have just one solenoid for UP, and for DOWN the trim motor's large green can be wired directly to the small green (maybe green with a white tracer (stripe) since commonly there isn't enough load to require a solenoid for DOWN, with its relative large Red (battery positive).
I've seen lots of those trim systems with (2) solenoids too. One for UP and one for DOWN.
doc

Terry, that's great that you got a 2nd. Good to hear the motor is running super and starting right away. Don't know anything about the Merc t/t but doc knows what he's talking about. As an aside the t/t on my '76 85hp OMC does not have any solenoids for up or down. It grounds through the engine hookup, has a heavy red from the batt to the rocker switch, one heavy green (up) and one heavy blue (dn). I thought the PO hot wired it but after research found out that was correct.

Happy to hear you got Second! Your boat is a beauty. Still can't figure out what your rattle is, but as long as it keeps running that good I guess it's not important. When I get a chance I will go out and see how my trim is wired. I have one solenoid and it is controlled by 3 buttons. One for down, one for trim up, and push both trim and tilt to raise the motor all the way. We will have to get together again for a few more "Spotted Cows".
Bill

Terry, I was thinking that noise sounded a lot like when I lost a rod bearing on the crankshaft of my v6 Merc. If that is it, you should stop running that one to prevent further damage. There is a test you can perform in the garage that may help find if that is the problem. Pm me of call if you want to discuss further.

Use Seafoam Deep Creep. Did this my old Bayliner/Force 125. Went from falling off plane at 3000, down to still on plane 2500! But do as says here, BUT, bring extra plugs and a wrench as probably will foul a few more, crud breaking loose. And one can should be enough whole motor...

"Your intent is REMOVE the existing carbon buildup from the cylinders, heads, and rings, a spray decarb solvent product, such as SeaFoam Deep Creep, is needed. Some people use one can per cylinder.Run engine at fast idle, with engine running, slowly spray liberal amount into each carb, its gonna smoke up the place,spray for a couple minutes, now spray a larger amount into carbs until engine chokes out and stops,remove spark plugs and spray decarb liberally into each cylinder, install the spark plugs, let it soak for 2 to 10 hours. Start the engine and run at medium throttle, or if at the lake, run it at full throttle. It won't hurt to spray some more through the carbs. Run it for atleast 10 minutes to flush the crud out of your engine. Now remove and clean, or replace the spark plugs. It works well to do the spraying, the night before you go to the lake. This way you can let it soak overnight, and really flush it out at the lake.Don't do this in front of the garage door or the house, unless you want it coated with greasy crud.

I did something similar a few years back and it did wonders on taking down mosquitos.

Terry,
If you were testing the power trim on the motor stand without the weight of the motor, that is probably why you had to push to make it go down. Add that 250 lbs and it will work fine as long as it doesn't go up too far up.
Bill

Thanks Doc,
I have the Merc Outboard Parts manual and they show what looks like a strap which is #99 and identified as a Tilt Stop.


Hey Bill,
Yeah! those cold Cows out on the island really hit the Spot.


Come on down to Geneva Lake in September and let me reciprocate. Planning to have this motor complete by then. And a friend has the repair manual with wiring diagrams so I should be able to figure it out once I see it.

Dr. Go,
You’re scaring me now. Hoping it is a carbon issue as some suspect. I will run it this weekend and blow it out some more with the Merc Tune juice. When we were at the Thompson rally you said you were going to get your brother in laws opinion. I have sent you and others emails via FG but get no response.

Robby,
Sounds like you are of the opinion the rattle is a carbon issue. Gonna finish up the can of Merc Tune and I been running Seafoam with only ethanol free gas. Will have to find the Deep Creep you recommend.

Had it running for a few hours now out on the water. I started it up on the trailer yesterday can’t hear any change.


Thanks everyone for your help,
Terry
Email: stmfittr at aol dot com

Hope it is the simple things Terry. The garage test I was talking about is simple. Pull all spark plugs. Rotate flywheel by hand pick a cylinder and bring that piston to just past top dead center... meaning the crankshaft is now pulling the piston back down the cylinder just past top dead center and stop. Now reach inside with something blunt, firm and that won’t flake or chip and won’t scar the piston. Now pay close attention as you try to push the piston down towards the crankshaft and see if it moves at all. Do this for every piston in the firing order. I did this years ago on my V6 200 and found one piston moved down. It had been making a similar noise. When the engine was disassembled, found the rod bearing to the crankshaft was chewed up and damaged my crankshaft. This was 10 years ago and a new crank from Merc was quoted at 2,400 dollars. I found someone in California that welded and reground the crankshaft that repaired cranks for tunnel boat racers. 350 buck shipped out and back a decade ago and the motor still runs great. I just was trying to be conservative and have you rule out this worse case scenario first if it helped from damaging the engine. Maybe the in line is totally different in noise as I know the bearings are different. Most of the experts here know way more than me. I am just sharing my experience and don’t want others to have my same problem. And least I found my problem and saved my engine before I let it get past the repair stage. Good luck with your other procedures.

Better hope not as IL6 have needle bearings rods.

I listened closely to both videos, and it sure sounds like conn rod noise to me. If not the Big End, then maybe a wristpin. Something is really clattery, and I'd be hesitant to run it much more until it's found. Barring something really weird like a noisy distributor (bad bearings, busted internals), I can't see what else it would be except the rotating innards. The 800 should have a solid flywheel, so no possibility of flex-plate noise.

Normally, on a rattly engine I'd say check the upper main bearing, but that doesn't doesn't sound anything like bearing clatter. Too bad, because if it were the upper ball bearing, it's pressed into the bearing cap and you can pull the cap without tearing apart the powerhead.

One last thought, how does it sound under load in the water, say at a fast idle? Still clattery?

How 'bout when you're underway at a good clip, can you still hear the noise. Or is it mostly at idle?

If you do decide to tear into it, one thing you can first do is pull the intake port covers. You'll at least get a good view of the intake side of the pistons, and the exhaust port side of the block. Maybe you'll be able to see something in there.

Maybe the Doc can weigh in, does it sound like a Death Knell to Mien Gut Docktor, eh?

HTH...........ed

Terry,

unfortunately best bet is to pull the powerhead and take a look inside...

Travis

Terry, I have checked emails for your pm, but had not seen anything. I just realized I better check my spam filter. I will let you know in a few days. Hope you are getting the the bottom of your unwanted noise.

Hey All,

Pluggin along here up in the holler and making some progress. Thanks for all your comments.

Have not run the noisy 800-1 since last post and think from what I am hearing from you all the power head is certainly a candidate for dissection. I always wanted to open one up.


So, I cleaned and dressed my original 800 and it is ready to plug into the cowl.


Hope to have it all together and on the boat this weekend.


Lower is reassembled and of course I nicked the fresh paint so need to sand and put on some more.


Also need to reshoot the top. Wonder if anyone has a spare handle in good shape.


Also, curious if anyone has painted the black on the raised letters.

Thanks,
Terry

what I do is sand front to rear with final 180 grit wet-dry sand paper.

Terry, that workroom is waaayyyy too clean. Question, what was the first thing out of your mouth when you nicked that paint?
Other than those issues things look fantastic. Hope you are able to find the problem on the 800 and get it fixed up before there is any real damage.

Hi Terry,
Like I said in Marinette, it sounds similar to our Mark 58A many years ago just before it threw the rod through the side of the block. Good idea to bite the bullet and tear it down before that happens. It makes a hell of a mess!!
Bill

Hello Dave,
Not sure what you mean but if I was to sand off the top of the letters the black paint may be easier to apply.

Hey Cal,
My work room is a 2-car garage and is not near the space I need. Just keeping it organized after each procedure is a task.
And you better believe I can cuss like a pipefitter. Actually I anticipated dinging something and I wanted to put another coat on the cowl top so no big deal.

Bill,
Yeah, I do recall you telling me about your Mark 58A, but I was holding on to the hope it was a carbon buildup issue. Running Seafoam and shooting in the Merc Tune is not helping. What did you end up doing with the blown Merc and do you have the gory pictures?
You gonna make it down to the Geneva Lake next month?

Thanks all,
Terry

sand the high spots and leave it or clear coat the whole thing.

That was about thirty years ago, so I didn't think to take pictures. The main thing I remember is a gaping hole in the side of the block and pieces of the rod cap hanging out of the hole. Not pretty. Can't make the show do to a prior commitment. Maybe next year.
Bill

Hey All,

I finally have this old Merc nearly put all back together on the boat. Got it started yesterday and this powerhead sounds just fine.



Have the hydraulics connections complete and the pump mounted. Man! that was a lot of work.
Just have cosmetics to complete now and get her cleaned up.

And we are still planning to show Mama Mia! and her new Old Merc power this weekend at the Abbey on Geneva Lake.

Thanks,
Terry

Good work Terry. Glad to see the new powerhead worked out. Not only sounds good but looks good also.

That one sounds REALLY good, and what a contrast to the other one, eh?

No more Box of Rocks, Yay!

Sounds great Terry. Glad you got this one running and saved the other one from coming apart. Maybe you can play with the old one this winter and see what was causing the noise. Enjoy showing off your hard work!

Thanks All,


It’s down to the wire but we’re lookin good to run the Old Merc on Geneva Lake tomorrow.





Terry

Hello! your motors look great !! I have a 1961 Merc 800 EL FGS that I was wanting to add the tilt/trim like you are doing.. I have all the pieces except the newer swivel .. I see someone said any from 1967 and newer would work.. does anyone know all the years that work ? I see yours was a 1970 I have found a 1974 and a 1975 they look pretty much like the one you used.. the 1974 has the older style transom tighteners the 1975 has the newer style.. is there a difference between Canadian & USA swivels ?? is there a difference in the short shaft and the long shaft swivels ? thank for any help on this .. John T.

Hello John T,

Some Merc Guys here say you can use the pre 67 swivels with caution. Mercury made it clear in the Power Trim installation manual.

Not sure of the last year where the heavy-duty swivel is interchangeable but thinking early 80’s. Also not sure if there were any manufacturing differences for the Canadian market.

I do know the swivels are different on short shaft and long shaft motors.

Thanks,
Terry

Really nice work Terry. I'm glad you decided to go with the different powerhead. Did you ever tear the noisy one down? I had a PowerCat C16 many years ago that had a beautiful 1000 on it. I bought from the original owner. Got it home, revived it, and took it to the closest lake for a shakedown. The motor rattled a bit like yours, but the rattle was more deep and intermittent. I sold the boat as-is without ever looking into the problem.

Terry,
I had the same system on my Thompson when I bought it with the '63 850 on it. Nothing had been changed or been updated and it worked fine with no problems. I can see it is a good idea to make sure you have no problems, but it's not like you are going to be making constant 50 to 60 mph passes with your beautiful Mama Mia. Just my opinion.
Bill

Thanks Bruce and welcome back.


The new Old Merc refresh turned out pretty good.

No, I have not investigated the rattler 800 any further.

There were two schools of thought regarding the noise. Some thought carbon buildup and others internals.
Al suggested a rod going though the case would be the tell all.

Sounds like something is moving around in there to me and want to dig into it for sure.
Working now blasting a top cowl for paint with the cast MERCURY lettering.

Thanks,
Terry

You made a good choice painting the engine with a durable finish. I did the Gale V4 on my Skagit with Nasson GM Fleet White in 2002. 15 years later it still looked like new, excepting for a few chips on the lower unit. I sold it to another California boat enthusiast. It's more expensive to do it 'right' but boy, it's worth it to have a lasting job.

Hello Merc Guys,

Headed back to the water after some extended down time. This Merc 800 after the P/T retrofit was on the water once and the reverse lock did not engage. Prop walks out of the water in reverse. Really make docking a challenge.

Merc manual says internal cylinder leaks or valve assembly inoperative. When I pull the motor up manually, I can hear oil gushing in the pump reservoir.

Bled as recommended although on the second bleeding the motor would not tilt back down. Tried pushing and it would not budge.
Relieved the pressure on the upside of the cylinders and it came back down and seems to operate OK but still no reverse lock.

Doc says the motor can travel up to far and stick. I do not have the restraint and guessing that is what is supposed to prevent over tilting.

Any Ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Terry

Do you have the reverse lock knob on the PT&T pump in the correct position? You shouldn't ever be able to pull the motor up manually unless the knob is fully CW. To engage the reverse lock the knob should be turned fully CCW.

I'd imagine if that valve was leaking internally, it'd cause a problem as well.

IIRC Thom said he used some poly or other type of non-rotting material to make his own tilt-limiting straps.

HTH..........ed

Thanks Ed,

Turning the knob does not affect the lock. I’m guessing the control valve is is the problem.

Terry

Got my hands on a pump off a 1500. Label clearly states the pump is sized for for those big boys.



The control valve appears to be the same and can find no other #’s for the valve so hope it is a correct replacement.


Learned quite a bit these last few days chasing down this issue, but the knowledge was hard to come by.


A wise man told me yesterday this particular part is a good example of Mercury’s holding some information close. It’s like the witch’s house. You don’t go in there.

Thanks Joe,
Terry