TOPIC: looking for opinions

what would be a better project boat and more fun in the end?
hydrostream viper 15' or Sidewinder 16'

both have amazing lines....viper has lines that make you drool, while the 'winders have that all around sleek fast look...

curious on some of your opinions and maybe ideas ...

Matt, Sorry not real familiar with the hulls. Know the names but can't remember what they look like. Got any pics to help us decide?

Bob

matt, i would get a sidewinder, you do not see many of them( at least not around here in mn) but there are alot of hydrostreams. i guess i would go with the winder. just my 2 cents. i wish we had more neat boats to choose from around here. frog

from what I've been finding...Winders seem to be found a lot in Missouri areas and as you stated the Hydros in Minnesota? why is there a certain territory for certain boats?


www.hydrostream.org/Specific%20Models/Viper.htm

Well then I would go with Frog on this one, get a sidewinder. If they're not common in your area then all the more reason to get one.

Bob

haha neither one of them would be common where I'm at....

I have belonged to this website for a while now and trust the opinions off all thats here....

the Winder does have a cracked windshield while the Viper I found has the interior redone? its a 50/50 thing going on....

sidewinders are unstable over 65, hydrostreams arnt any fun untill 65mph.

Ponyboy:
Have you had the pleasure of owning these boats?
Not looking for crazy speed but would like to to get faster than 30mph lol....

as far as strength which of the 2 would be better?

matt, my brother has a hydrostream panther tunnel hull with a 150 hp merc, goes like h*ll but is scary to ride in,or maybe it is just me. lol frog

What's for power? I agree somewhat with Ponyboy, but at 15' and 16', I'll say 50mph. And the 'stream will go faster with the same motor, and handle higher speeds than the 'winder. As much as I've loved the Sidewinders, since the 70's, I'd jump on a Hydrostream first, all else being EQUAL.

winder 2 hydrostream 2 ??

whats everyones take on recoring a boat? i believe the Viper would need some TLC.


power would be that of an 85hp for starts or perhaps my Tower 150 thats hanging around.....course a 115 wouldn't be bad either.

85 or 115 is classic Sidewinder. 150 Tower is Hydrostream territory. Pick your power and choose the boat that matches the speed. I've seen V-6's on Vipers run 90+, but only on the smoothest waters. Tower 150 could run in the 70's with proper setup. I'd guess 65mph stock. About 5mph slower with the Sidewinder. Howard Pipkorn was very innovative in designing the 'streams bottoms AND decks. Not many realize, but he designed the decks to compliment the hulls at speed, hence the unique look. They were aerodynamic AND hydrodynamic. (thru the air and water)

There are alot of folks over on scream and fly that have been running both. There would be real good info there also to aid in your decision.
Neil

hydrostream like the viper , Pipkorn designe the boat to have a hook in it...i read that over on the hydrstream forum.

will look over on Scream and fly.....either one I want a boat capable of tower power !!

The hook was his way of keeping rookies from getting into trouble, but was advertised as a planing aid. Howard knew about liability lawyers, too. Those "in the know" filled in the hook when they blueprinted the bottom.

On just looks I like the Sidewinder looks different unique. The Hydrostream looks common.

get the sidewinder and post up the location of the hydrostream so I can jump on it lol.

In this area (which is your area basically) I see sidewinders all the time. Heck, 2 miles from my house is one sitting in a backyard with a BIG Johnson, been sitting there for a while just havent stopped. If you wanted an inboard I would GIVE you a tahiti Jet (same basic hull).

jetboat wrote:

get the sidewinder and post up the location of the hydrostream so I can jump on it lol.

In this area (which is your area basically) I see sidewinders all the time. Heck, 2 miles from my house is one sitting in a backyard with a BIG Johnson, been sitting there for a while just havent stopped. If you wanted an inboard I would GIVE you a tahiti Jet (same basic hull).

where you located jetboat? I see Illinois...prob asked this before...
I haven't been out enough to see what people are running...I know up in Chetek this year...i hardly saw any fiberglassics...ran across for sale..like a Rayson...rockford area there is Hustler for sale...


@temptest.. the Viper has some crazy stlying out front and back..i don;t think they look similar to too many others.

i just cant pull the trigger .. not sure why...i think I am to confused anymore on what I want in a project and what the end result may be ??


may be too much to read but interesting..IMO

The Viper will seat 4 adults comfortably. Storage is under the deck and under the front seat. It is not a roomy boat. The boat handles the rougher water at low speeds surprisingly well.

With an inline six for power the Viper will run in the mid to upper 60's. The acceleration is fair with a 115, but you can trim it to the moon and feel very safe and very high. One drawback to the Viper is its ability to handle waves or rough water at speed. If you spend a lot of time behind the wheel you gain a little more confidence crossing wakes, but it almost always feels like impending doom! Another drawback to the Viper is that it sits low to the water at the transom (even with an inline). This causes the boat to take on water coming off plane or when anchored. With a V-6 you have to come off plane slowly or you will swamp the boat.

With a V-6 for power this little boat becomes a rocket. It planes much quicker, needs less trim to fly, and has awesome acceleration. The boat feels pretty stable up to 80-85 if you are an experienced pilot. After that it feels really light.

The Viper is not a very good weight-carrying hull. It has a tendency to porpoise with weight in the boat over 25 mph and until it gets on the pad. With the pad filled in, it makes the porpoise much better and a big blade chopper helps more. For top speed, a Cleaver prop works well as it helps reduce the harsh reality of blowover which is one of the dangers we have to live with due to Pipkorn's "Delta-V" design. A healthy Merc 2.5 200 HP will see speeds in the low 90's. Those with aspirations of 100+ mph: forget it...blowover no longer becomes a question of if, but more like when....

All in all, the Viper is an excellent hot rod. It can do it all: tow skiers, take up to 4 adults cruising, and scare the pants off of you with its awesome speed and bow-light feeling.

Thats like asking the blonde or the redhead.....Who cares there both hot !

I'm about 45mins up the road from you... we've discussed it before.

If you want it as a family type go fast, I would say go with the sidewinder/cobra/tahiti.

If you want a more race boat, go with the viper. I have a buddy running one with a 150hp, said its a great boat but over 60mph into the wind, count on it wanting to spin. Push it faster and you better be holding on. It will do every but of 80 but, your on the edge the whole time. If you watch the race video's I posted in the general section, there is a video of 2 hydrostream racing. They arent vipers but share the same lower hull design (for the most part). They were running on 75's (class rules) and the one was hanging with new boats (running second) until he got greedy in the turn and spun it.

Ive owned 3 of the low profile sidewinders-same hull diff top- than the one in the pic from craigslist, the good is that if it needs a floor or a transom its pretty easy. The hydrostream is a core set up witch is much more work involved, So if ya just want to go fast-50-60 mph a 115 will get you there on the sidewinder, I havent owned a viper so I cant say for sure about any of it. I loved my winders though,deep V for good heavy waves, hey I know ck out my old videos on you tube, search "jmevinrude" the yellow one was a 55 mph boat and the white one was a 52 mph, both a nice fun ride or maybe you need the cobra.....lol

ponyboy...awesome lopro correct? ... i actually have a merc 1500 that I have been itching to find a boat to rig it to.
The core hull thing is a bit of a concern.
I also know where there is a 16' Lopro near me that needs an overhaul...my proble though is I really like the windshield look..not sure why, but the LoPros to me look like they are missing something....

jetboat...will have to look back a few threads...my memory is getting bad...38 in a few days...lol...you near rockford?



im not looking to crazy dying speeds but would be great to have that old boat that can keep up or better yet pass someones newer more expensive pleasure ride !! lol ... plus only real place for me is the Ill river....

3 things i hate on a boat,windsheilds-cant see through them so ya have to look over them, clear silicone....sticks to everything but the hole your trying to fix, trim tabs on a hot rod, they are made for big fat boats that list from one side or the other....LOL, no realy I like to sit in the wind and see everything.

I see ... in my arrowglass I sit where the wind goes over me or i can adjust myself a tad and sit behind it...clear glass no issues..
the guy with the LoPro thought my 150 would be a great motor for a Winder? any objection? course i wouldnt WOT with the family it but just me...different story.....

I live over by Joliet... store my boats down by CHampaign/Danville


I have to agree on the windshields, I like to be able to duck down and get out of the wind a bit. My G3 is about perfect, I can get out of the wind and still see over it at the same time, more of a wind deflector.

It is a little bit of an apples and oranges question as the boats really are a bit different. They are both excellent boats in MHO for the intended emphasis of use.
The Viper is designed with maximizing speed in mind. Lighter construction, smaller boat, faster bottom design, more bow rise to get on plane, more porposing at various trims and throttle, more sensitive to prop selection. The Sidewinder is more towards a standard shallow v bottom, more room, heavier boat, OK for skiing and better mannered in general, all at a compromise of higher top speed. A Viper will be 60 plus the Sidewinder would be 50 plus with same motor (1500 or later 1150) set-up. The sidewinder will be close to a Glastron CV-16 or a GT-160 in personality. If you want a bigger Hydrostream that would still outperform the Sidewinder but be a bit more civil than the Viper look for a Vector or better still a V-King/Viking depending on year. These larger Streams will be a touch slower than the Viper but be a bit more civil, particularly the V-King Viking with your 1500 in-line. Unfortunatley all the Streams will have core issues unless someone has done it, and at that, I'd be leery it was done right.
Both the Sidewinder and the Viper will start to chine walk at the upper limits of these speeds and needed trim. The Vector will too but, the V-King/Viking won't with an inline and those speeds.
I think they both are fun, the Viper will be a little wilder handling wise.
If you have no personal reason to pick one over the other go with the Sidewinder. It is a much easier restore. You will be guaranteed to need a new core in the Stream which will be in addition to the transom and floor/stringers that the Sidewinder most likely is need of also. The core is a MAJOR PIA to replace and the Viper deck/hull really are difficult to split apart, it's really best to do the work without splitting making it very difficult. I just restored a 74 Hydrostream Vector, non hook, but that was for personal reasons. I have done a lot of resto's and this was by far the most difficult and time consuming to get correct. All things being equal, I would have done a GT-160 or a Tahiti/Sidewinder I looked for all of the above but, found the Stream, that was my first "real" boat back in the day so it got the nod. I spent a lot of time in the Glastrons and Sidewinders mentioned above and really liked them but he Hydrostreams were radical in comparison speed and handling wise in the day.
So, the Sidewinder would be much easier to restore and drive and still be a totally cool boat although a bit slower.
That's just my take..there is no bad decision, just know the differences.
Randy

thanks randy....will take all that into account.

Matt in the last few years i have done more then my share working on Hydro's and they all seem to need a total recore job , floors , transom ext ext ,and with that in mind you just might want to think twice because just about everybody i know that has owned a Hydo in the past , and present is doing something along those lines . Matt , dont get me wrong Hydro's are a great boat butttttt the quality in the build was just not there ,and seeing that i have been a member on S&F for many years now just about everbody that gets a Hydro on that forum is either in the process of restoration or will be starting very soon. Just my 2 cents

thanks Offshore.
I didnt pull the trigger on the Sidewinder, I did email owner of the Viper for more pictures and of the boat.
Every thread i read about a Hydrostream seems at some point they mention of rebuilding the core.
Waiting patiently ... I wouldn't be scared of a Hydro redo...but if recoring is a must I can widen my search and look into Bajas and "Mates too...but really think I'll stay focused on the Stringered hulls...


thanks

matt wrote:

thanks Offshore.
I didnt pull the trigger on the Sidewinder, I did email owner of the Viper for more pictures and of the boat.
Every thread i read about a Hydrostream seems at some point they mention of rebuilding the core.
Waiting patiently ... I wouldn't be scared of a Hydro redo...but if recoring is a must I can widen my search and look into Bajas and "Mates too...but really think I'll stay focused on the Stringered hulls...


thanks

Matt ,you are very welcome ,and if you do decide to get the Viper i can talk you thru the whole process if need be because like i stated in a previous post i have done more then my share of them in the last few years , and in fact i just might be doing one in the near future . Matt , just curious are you looking for turnkey or somewhat of a project boat ?

Howard Pipkorn made the Hydrostream boats in the Twin Cities, MN. I am pretty sure I met him one time. Sidewinder boats were built in California until 1973. Thompson Boat of Peshtigo, WI bought the assets from the receiver in 1974 and they were then made at Peshtigo until 1980. In 1980 Thompson moved to St. Charles, MI and they continued to make Sidewinders for a few years.

Sidewinder boats were also made in Canada.

There is a Sidewinder webpage with discussion forum.

Andreas

Thompson Boat Co , and there holdings were purchased by the Anderson brother's out of St Clare Shores Mich in the mid to late 70's and moved operations to the old Browning boat Co facility in St Charles Mich , and after production increased a new facility was built out side of town that housed a brand new Cruiser division which at that time was pretty much state of the art producing some pretty nice crusiers along with there bigger Sport fishermen models , and when i worked at Thompson Boat Co the Sidewinder was a very popular model, and to tell you the truth the sidwinder was a fun driver .

thanks[/quote]Matt ,you are very welcome ,and if you do decide to get the Viper i can talk you thru the whole process if need be because like i stated in a previous post i have done more then my share of them in the last few years , and in fact i just might be doing one in the near future . Matt , just curious are you looking for turnkey or somewhat of a project boat ? [/quote]

I am looking for somewhat a project boat...problem is I dont know what I want anymore. I started wanting a Gt150 I have rode in one and well too small...amd wanting something I can place a 150 on. I've been hunting for the "right" boat w/o motor hoping to save on some $$.


thompsonboat: I am a forum member on sidewinder-boats.com

Dale and David Anderson purchased the assets of Thompson Boat, Inc. of Peshtigo from the bankruptcy court in 1980, not the mid 1970s. Everything was packed up and moved to St Charles, MI. They rebuilt the company only to have it crash again in 1993.

Andreas

Hey Matt... I almost forgot, I bought my 85hp off the back of a 16' Sidewinder. I think the guy still has it and wants $200 for the boat and trailer. Needed a new transom and some paint, has the stock front seats in it. If your interested I can look the old guy back up.

Adreas , i apologize , and stand corrected because it is very obvious that you have a greater knowledge of Thompson Boat Co,then i......... considering i was working there in the mid to late 70's and might even have my first pay stub showing my hourly rate of $4.34 an hour . Andreas , there were things going on with the Anderson brothers and Thompson Boat Co behind closed door's way before the company filed bankruptcy considering the Anderson Brother's at one time were one of the biggest dealers in the country , and like i said before you seem to have a great knowledge of Thompson Boat Co ,and with that in mind i do not want to get into a pissin match about Thompson Boat's , even though they provided me...... with a better foundation of fiberglass repair / lamination , at a production level....which in turn gave me more knowledge of the industry ....that gave me an opportunity to move on to bigger and better things... like S-2 Yachts or TIARA ,PowerQuest ,and Skater .Andreas ,there is one thing that you failed to mention , and that is........... the fire that nearly took out the whole plant when both divisions of the Co were at the old Browning facilty . Hey guy , once again i apologize , and read your article , and was very surprised you even mentioned Roger Devroy ......but i will leave it at that, and have a good day .

jetboat wrote:

Hey Matt... I almost forgot, I bought my 85hp off the back of a 16' Sidewinder. I think the guy still has it and wants $200 for the boat and trailer. Needed a new transom and some paint, has the stock front seats in it. If your interested I can look the old guy back up.

where was this located at? I found one up near Lombard that he wanted 350 for... was selling boat and trailer no titles though...
Was it a LoPro or 16SS ?

I found a guy (d. porter ??) about an hour from me, has a 16' LoPro needs floor and transom, and had back 2 back bucket...but really like the windshield look !

OFFSHORE GINGER wrote:

Adreas , i apologize , and stand corrected because it is very obvious that you have a greater knowledge of Thompson Boat Co,then i......... considering i was working there in the mid to late 70's and might even have my first pay stub showing my hourly rate of $4.34 an hour .

To OFFSHORE,

Now it's my turn to speak up.

While I was not employed at Thompson, I can tell you that boats were made in Peshtigo for the 1979 model year. Or at least their boats & brochures reflected that.

The Andersons may have been involved prior to the 1980 timeline that AJ speaks of, perhaps behind closed doors and out of public knowledge? You may certainly be correct about this.

You state you worked there in the mid to late '70's. Was "there" Peshtigo or St Charles? Was "there" at Thompson or at Anderson's dealership?

Is it possible that boats were being built in both locations? Is it possible that the Andersons were building "their own" Thompson boats to sell at their dealership? Perhaps just paying Thompson a royalty for the use of the name. Would this be legal with the C.G.? Would the HIN use the same MIC code? Would that data plate specify the factory's location?

I'm not speaking up to get in a pissing match with you, but your comments to AJ were out of line. He has been with this board for years and has some personal knowledge of the Thompson lineage. You may have been posting on Scream & Fly for years, but you have only been here for 3 days. I too will leave it at that.

BTW, you are 100% correct about the Hydrostreams being a balsa cored hull.

Jim

matt wrote:

from what I've been finding...Winders seem to be found a lot in Missouri areas and as you stated the Hydros in Minnesota? why is there a certain territory for certain boats?

Back then there were lots more small regional builders than today. So, Hydrostream being built in New Brighton, MN will be found in the highest concentrations in Minnesota.

In Illinois, you should find lots of Switzercrafts. All the wood ones and very early fiberglass ones were made in Mc Henry. Most glass ones were built in Crystal Lake. Bob & Dave Switzer sold the company in 1982. The new owner built boats for 8 or 10 years. I personally like the "Switzer built" models & have no experience with the later boats. Switzers are also balsa cored (I don't know about the later "after Switzer" built boats).

You should find lots of Baja and Checkmates since Ohio isn't too far away. I don't know if they are cored.

I keep going back to the balsa core issue here because it was brought up. It was considered high tech and light weight so it likely made its way into light, go fast stuff more readily than a run of the mill runabout.

That being said, Shell Lake about 1961 & later, fiberglass Lunds built in Shell Lake (plant was closed in 1980), Cruisers Inc (60s & 70s, maybe later and includes Rally brand by Cruisers), I've heard Classic (St Charles, IL built by Bob Smith the owner of Smith Marine in Berwyn) all use balsa core. Obviously there were lots others.

I am familiar with these because of the WI, IL & MN locations. Briefly; Shell Lake pioneered balsa core when they exited bankruptcy in 1961. All post bankruptcy boats were cored. Cy Atkinson left Shell Lake in 1965 to work for Cruiser Inc to help them get their fiberglass production started. That would explain the balsa useage there. Lund bought out Shell Lake in 1968 and that explains the balsa core in the fiberglass Lunds built at the Shell Lake factory. I have no idea if the balsa construction followed when production was moved to MN in 1980. The Classics were said to use balsa, but I can't verify from 1st hand experience. Fiberglass Switzers built up to 1982 are cored, later ones I don't know.

Rule of thumb, if you find a mint boat with perfect floor & seats, then the core should be good; No guarantee.

Jim

To all concerned if you are considering on purchasing a boat that has foam added to the build (Checkmate for excample) buyer beware because a lot of these boats had a 2 lb - 2 part foam added to the cockpit area which supported the floor, and surounded the gas tank which was very common on a lot of there boats , and seeing that this particular foam has a very low density it has a tendency to absorb water like a sponge which later down the road can cause some serious problems to the integrity of the boat from rotted stringers , flooring ,added weight , ext . Hey guys i guess the bottom line is.............. you can have a balsa cored boat or one that has foam ,and still end up with serious problems.Just a quick mention ,and that is........ i would rather have a Balsa cored boat because the core is fully encapsulated with glass opposed to any boat that has any foam added to the build .